主持人：中產(chǎn)階級的崛起有多快？
Host: How fast is the middle class rising?

楊瀾：因為很多人將此作為衡量中國發(fā)展的重要因素之一?？粗袊顺隹谥猓瑑?nèi)需市場是否能建立起來。我想中產(chǎn)階級發(fā)展很快，不過我沒有一個具體數(shù)字，當(dāng)然也要看你怎么界定中產(chǎn)階級，有穩(wěn)定工作？有房產(chǎn)？
Yang Lan: Because many look at it as an important element of China's growth to find markets internally and serve the markets externally. I think the middle class is growing very fast. I don't have a specific number that I can give you. It also depends on how would you define a middle-class person. A regular job? a home?

主持人：那么你們在中國怎么界定中產(chǎn)階級？
Host: How would you define middle class in China?

楊瀾：嗯，我會說，租房住，買房住，有穩(wěn)定的工作，事業(yè)發(fā)展有前景，有孩子，有車。這些是一些基本象征。就拿中國車輛銷售的提升來說，這也是正在崛起的中產(chǎn)階級的象征之一，去年中國賣出了 1 千萬部新車，中國正成為所有行業(yè)數(shù)一數(shù)二的大市場。我想這是中國中產(chǎn)階級正在崛起的一個象征。
Yang Lan: Well, I would say you know, a rented home, a board home. A regular job. A career in sight. Raising children, having a car. That can be some of the symbols. If you think of the rise of car sales in China, I think that would be one of the symbols of the rising middle class. Last year 10 million new cars were sold in China. It's becoming the first or the second largest market for everything. I think that could be one symbol of the rising of the middle class in China.

主持人：當(dāng)我們談?wù)撝袊恼魏妥兓倳峒把哉撟杂?。我們都知道谷歌的爭議事件，你怎樣定義今天中國的言論自由？
Host: When we look at the politics of China, the changes of China there are always the questions of freedom of expression. We all know about the Google controversy that took place. How would you characterize freedom of expression today in China?

楊瀾：仍然有規(guī)章制度、審批制度、令人失望的地方，這是肯定的。但我也看到進(jìn)步，尤其是在互聯(lián)網(wǎng)普及的情況下，互聯(lián)網(wǎng)正成為人們對政策發(fā)表意見的重要渠道。好的壞的都包括。有不少濫用權(quán)力的例子在互聯(lián)網(wǎng)上被曝光，公眾的龐大力量促使政府更及時更透明地作出反應(yīng)，并直接促使政府修改有關(guān)法規(guī)和政策，我想這是我們已經(jīng)取得的進(jìn)步。
Yang Lan: There are still regulations, censorship, frustrations. That's for sure. But I also see progress, especially through the introduction of internet. It has become a big public arena that more people will voice their opinions about public policies. Pros and cons. And there have been many cases when abuses of power were reported on the internet; huge public outcry will drive the government to be more spontaneous, to be more transparent, and also it directly led to the change of regulations or practices by the government. I think that's the progress we have made.

主持人：那么人權(quán)狀況呢？
Host: And human rights?

楊瀾：拿拘留犯人、服刑犯人來舉例，互聯(lián)網(wǎng)上會曝光那些遭受虐待的案例，事后相關(guān)人員被處分，會開展調(diào)查并重新修改相關(guān)法規(guī)。我想這是我們能看到的進(jìn)步。當(dāng)然，在一個大國，你每時每處都能見到很多問題在發(fā)生。我想現(xiàn)在最受關(guān)注的問題之一就是土地征用。人們擔(dān)心土地因為城市發(fā)展被征用時能否得到合理賠償。怎樣算是合理的賠償？有時候政府和居民有不同的看法。所以我們看到有很多沖突會發(fā)生。
Yang Lan: Well, taking the example of people in custody, or people in prison. There were cases reported through the internet. That they were mistreated. And then related personnels were published, investigations were initiated, and regulations have been reshaped. I think those are progresses that we can see. But of course, in such a vast country, you see a lot of issues, problems pumping out every day, in a lot of places. I think right now the major concern is the land usage. People worry about proper compensation for their land, which was taken away for urbanization or development. So what is proper compensation? Sometimes the government and residents may have different perspectives. That's what we see where a lot incidents come up.

主持人：你認(rèn)識的很多中國人，你的朋友和同事，他們怎么看待今天的美國？
Host: How do you see a lot of Chinese that you know, your friends and colleagues view the United States today?

楊瀾：哇，這是個大問題。我想人們覺得美國是一個自由開放的社會。在教育、文化和世界政治等方面有領(lǐng)導(dǎo)地位。但我想很多中國人不同意美國政府在國際上推行的一些政策，尤其是在伊拉克戰(zhàn)爭等事宜上。
Yang Lan: Wow, that's a big question. I think people look up to the US as it is a free and open society. It's leading in education, in culture, in world politics and so on so forth. But I think many Chinese disagree on some of the international policies that the US government holds. Especially on Iraq wars and so on so forth.

主持人：也有一些問題是有共識的，例如北朝鮮，中美在一些問題上有合作。
Host: But some agree on North Korea. US and China cooperate on some of …

楊瀾：是的，中美在很多方面有合作。
Yang Lan: Yes, there is cooperation between US and China on a lot of fronts.

主持人：你怎樣看中國，我知道你制作電視節(jié)目、開辦企業(yè)和非政府報刊，但你怎樣看中國在今后 25 年在世界上扮演的角色？
Host: How do you think China, I realize you do television programs and entrepreneur activities, and newspapers are not part of the government, how do you think China sees its role in the world over the next 25 years?

楊瀾：我想中國在自由貿(mào)易方面、環(huán)保方面擔(dān)當(dāng)更多責(zé)任的同時不僅是為全世界著想，也是為我們自己著想。我們不能在健康受威脅的土地上生存。從國內(nèi)，我們能比外人看到更多問題，我們看到很多的民工只要外匯匯率動搖一點就會工作不保，因為制造業(yè)的利潤非常低。
Yang Lan: Well, I think while China will take on more responsibilities in terms of free trade, in terms of the environmental protection, it's not for the sake of the outside world. It's for our own people. We can't live on a polluted piece of land with our health threatened. Also I think from an internal perspective, we see more problems than outsiders can see. We see hundreds of millions of workers, who are migrant works, whose jobs are at stake, if the foreign currencies change a little bit. Because the margin for the manufacturing industry is very low.

主持人：你是不是想說中國抗拒貨幣升值的部分原因是不想影響工人的工資？
Host: You are suggesting that China's resistance to appreciate the currency was in part because it would affect the wages of the workers in China?

楊瀾：不僅是工資，是他們的生計。上千萬工人的工作會因此受到影響。我并不是站在政府角度來爭論這些問題，我只是作為局內(nèi)人想說我們比外面的人會看到更多的挑戰(zhàn)。
Yang Lan: Not just the wages, it's the security of jobs. It could affect millions or tens of millions of jobs. I am not arguing from the government point of view. I am just arguing as an insider, we see more internal challenges than outsiders can see.

主持人：美國人也同樣在爭論。事實上人們會要求政府增加關(guān)稅來保護(hù)美國工人。
Host: Americans make arguments the same way. In fact, you need to impose tariffs, because you need to protect the American workers.

楊瀾：所以雙方就需要平衡……對于所有國家的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人，保護(hù)就業(yè)是重要問題。
Yang Lan: So I think it's a balance of both… How you protect jobs is an important problem for officials all over the world.